Hanako Games

Greetings, Impressions, and Suggestions

#1 by LogicalDash - Mar 20 2013

Hi there, I'm LogicalDash. I bought Magical Diary out of an interest in the sadly neglected life sim genre, and also partly because it's one of the very few Steam games on Linux. Penguins represent!

I've played the game for, oh, four hours? And having learned the ropes I've just started a new character. I'm favorably impressed for the most part. The scheduling system is visually appealing and intuitive. The stat system is less detailed than I'd wanted, but this turns out to be a good thing because those stats you do have are directly, thematically relevant to the game's setting and story. And the dungeons--well, okay, I'd like more appealing wall graphics--but the magical effects are actually pretty comprehensively implemented, which is more than I get from even Bethesda.

I have one, very specific beef with the way the start of the game is written. The initiation, specifically. Not with the fact that there is a totally not a hazing ritual in the game, nor that you have to alienate some people in order to opt out of it. My beef is mainly to do with the way the choice to participate is presented: if I take Damien's hand, I'm in for the whole initiation. I'd already decided I was against the initiation once I'd heard the description from the class prez, but I didn't have anything against him or Damien or anyone in the room, really, and taking Damien's hand seemed a harmless politeness--after which I could go to the prez or a teacher, as necessary, and point out that this is fscked up. I didn't get that option, and indeed was unable to express any reservations at all. Not when writing an embarrassing love letter; not when blindfolded and put in a van. It kind of ruined my illusion of agency, is what I'm saying. I no longer felt all that sympathetic to my character, which might be why I'm starting a new one without finishing the first.

The combinatoric effect of adding choices to a visual novel means you couldn't possibly handle each possible approach to the initiation. I just think it deserved more than it got. I might be interested in modding that part of the game, actually--do you support this?

With *magicalness*,

LogicalDash

#2 by hanako - Mar 20 2013

Hello! Thanks for writing.

I'm always willing to consider adding more options, but there are often complex forces at work behind what options are presented. So this is gonna get rambly and possibly a little spoilery. I'm not sure how much of the game you've seen so far, you may wish to come back to this later.

Since the range of options at any point is so limited, just making something a possibility has a big effect on people's desires to pursue those angles, if you see what I mean. Adding an option to tell someone off at various points, it would get picked a LOT just because it was there and people like to experiment in games... whereas for people actually in the situation, suddenly flipping tables and making a big speech is highly unlikely.

With the initiation, both the school/society and Damien himself (for different reasons) are trying to impress a submissive role on the PC: play along, obey, don't make a fuss. This is normal, just do what everyone else is doing. They want to turn you into a person who will go along with things. And in reality this usually works. Everything that happens in Initiation in the game happened for real at my school.* And no freshman ever tried to fight the system, not for all the years I was there...

Of course, this is a game, we get to be heroes, and there is an option to resist all this. But I don't want to make that option too overt, or it'll break the fiction. Authorially, I want most people to go along with it their first time through the game, and on replay, after having found out what Damien was really up to, THEN reject the whole thing (and him) decisively.

But I do want a clear out for people who are absolutely certain they don't want to go near this at all. So the setup with that first choice with Damien is designed to try and give the impression that Damien is treating you like you're weak and helpless, that an adventurous Horse girl (and a bold and daring protagonist, for those who are choosing to RP their character that way) would refuse his hand and get up by herself.

I definitely do not want to give the player the option to protest at every step along the way. I do want it to be something of a slippery slope of rationalisation... nobody's actually been hurt, everybody else is doing it, it's easier to just play along, etc... that once you've started taking part, it's very difficult to call a stop.

So you see, there's a lot at work with the way that both the characters and me as author are trying to manipulate the player.

Do you have a suggestion for any way to make it more clear that taking his hand is a little more than just "being polite", without making the choice an explicit "take part / don't take part"?

* - except the seniors felt a little guilty about kidnapping us and driving us off blindfolded. And slightly worried about what the cops might think if they saw us. So they told us we could take the blindfolds off while they were driving.

On the other hand, the seniors in this game didn't force the freshmen to mudwrestle blindfolded, or all sorts of OTHER interesting things we went through...

#3 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

EDIT TO THE EDIT: I waffled a lot. Skip to for the suggestions I still think are good.

If you want to keep the changes confined to that initial encounter with Damien, I would suggest that there be a menu presented before a single word gets out of the player character's mouth. In response to, "I think you should be my freshman," currently the PC must say "O...okay?..."; and that's one option; but by this menu you could also say, "I'm nobody's freshman," and thence walk out without Damien's pushing you to the ground first. If you do accept his choice, the take his hand/stand up on your own decision acts as a confirmation.

But, from the wording of your question, it looks as if you might prefer to avoid having the player character state her refusal outright. In that case I'd actually suggest leaving the initial conversation as is, but include other refusal options later:

- In the menu when deciding what kind of letter to write for Damien, include an option to write no letter at all. He'll be pissed, you'll tell him to get stuffed, and that will close his path. I'm not certain that's strictly equivalent to walking out of the start of initiation, as I haven't observed what if any effect that has on people who aren't Damien.
- On the last day of initiation, upon being given the blindfold, add the option not to put it on. I don't think Damien was in the room at that point, so he won't say anything about it, but you don't get taken to the van if you're not wearing a blindfold, so you won't be at the party, which means Damien would have to actually track you down to give you his present. I figure he won't, since your absence tends to indicate at least a lack of interest, if not an actual rejection of submission.

Responding to players with beefs is above and beyond the call of duty, and you should feel awesome for doing it.

#4 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

Hmm... I've reread your post, and it looks like I may have misunderstood your intentions. I thought the reason you didn't want to include an "out" that was *too* explicit was because it would have too many knock-on effects with how other characters react to your decision, but that was a different part of your post; the specific reason you don't want to include an overly explicit "out" here is actually because you're playing the player, by letting players used to being super agreeable to dudes in visual novels pick the "obvious" option and find out how bad an idea that was.

In that case, when Damien picks you for his freshman, I think there should be another menu: "Yes sir", "O...kay?", and "Say nothing". Adventure gamers trying to maximize their options would tend toward the former and avoid the latter. So if you say nothing, Damien gets annoyed with you, and then you can apologize or leave. Sound better?

By the same logic, not writing Damien's letter after you said you would is the sort of thing a flake would do, and a player committed to maximizing options wouldn't want that. Failing to write the letter isn't playing hard to get, it's just being thoughtless, so the type of player you are playing would not tend to pick that option.

I'm not coming up with a good way to handle the blindfold. I know that putting on a blind fold would be The Line for me, but I am also the sort of person who would then try to stop the vans from leaving and, well, that's a whole new subplot right there. Good mod material, I guess?

Anyway yeah, thanks for putting up with my rambling.

#5 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

But I do want a clear out for people who are absolutely certain they don't want to go near this at all. So the setup with that first choice with Damien is designed to try and give the impression that Damien is treating you like you're weak and helpless, that an adventurous Horse girl (and a bold and daring protagonist, for those who are choosing to RP their character that way) would refuse his hand and get up by herself.

My issue is that I saw no connection between decisively rejecting the initiation and decisively rejecting Damien. I'd be more than satisfied with an option to walk out before Damien's sprite even appears on the screen.

I'll stop now. I have tons more ideas. But I'll stop now. I'll make my own game later. Later!

#6 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

(it is now the next morning, and therefore, "later")

If you genuinely want a clear out for people who do not want an abuse plot, my suggestions for things to change after initiation starts won't do. They might be good for other reasons--I like the idea of making the player complicit in telling the lies that let the ritual continue, rather than merely having the character tell them--but they only get you "out" when you're already "in", so they don't do what you want. Rewording the choice as it stands wouldn't do that either, because it comes after the weak and halting "okay?" that Damien takes for consent.

So my suggestions are:

William: "...see a teacher if you are asked to do anything harmful, or that you feel is wrong."
Player (whispered, to Victoria): "You didn't tell me this would be a hazing!"
Victoria: "I didn't know. Just... play it cool."
- Play it cool
- Do not play

I think the latter option should result in the player simply walking out, and not even talking to a teacher about it, because it's not like William can give her demerits or anything.

And then, as for Damien:

Damien: "I think you should be my freshman."
- Okay
- I am nobody's freshman

(The rest of his dialog might as well stay the same.)

I do think you need one choice for the initiation and another for Damien. I actually liked what I saw of Damien (which did not include the um, cultist stuff that I've gleaned from these forums) and might even have played along if he were merely bossing me around, rather than taking part in an organized abuse project. He probably wouldn't be interested after seeing me get all uppity, though.

My final, special snowflake wish--it would be a Stretch Goal on Kickstarter; it's not important--is that if you do go through with the initiation, you get the option to refuse Damien's gift at the party. Do this, and you'll thereafter regard the whole business with the initiation as something ugly you had to do in order to keep your options open--fully aware you were being bullied, but submitting anyway because you figured you were better off that way.

I just solved dungeon 2. I used green magic to buff myself up and withstand the damage from the trap. Feels good :3

#7 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

Well. You did say you didn't want to make the choice into an explicit "take part/don't take part". And both of my suggestions are pretty clear which results in taking part and which doesn't.

But you also said you want a clear "out" for those who don't want any part of this creepsauce. These goals seem mutually exclusive.

Unless your only concern was to keep the "take his hand or don't" choice? Taking his hand as a confirmation of your decision to stay on his path seems fine.

Having an explicit "do not play" option somewhere along the line seems perfectly compatible with the player-manipulation objective, because adventure gamers tend to maximize their options where available. An option that obviously locks you out of a lot of content isn't going to appeal to the type of person you're targeting...right?

#8 by hanako - Mar 21 2013

These goals seem mutually exclusive.

That's why it's a tricky balance to strike, and why I'm not rushing in to change things in a hurry.

I want there to be enough warning signs that someone who recognises without being prompted that this situation is screwed up can find the options to get out of it.

I don't want the option to get out of it to be clear enough that it would suggest an escape to someone who hasn't already thought of it. Any direct "take part / don't" is prompting the player rather than letting them think of it on their own.

I'm not sure that there is any other solution that will meet my goals for the scene... I suspect other responses may fall more into the realm of good fanfic seeds. But I'm still thinking about it.

#9 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

Ah. Ah! Ah~

Well, the fact of refusing one order doesn't really indicate that you're amenable to refusing the whole program. Already the game recognizes this, by making you confirm the choice... I think by apologizing to Damien?

If we're sticking to the first conversation with Damien, I think something like that would work better as the first choice. The subtext is: Are you ashamed of disobeying, or aren't you? Failure to be ashamed makes him mad, and so, provokes him to push you to the floor like he already does. The difference, now, would be that you cannot avoid offending Damien with something trivial on first meeting him, and must apologize in order to continue his path. I imagine he might "trip over you" accidentally on purpose, and demand your contrition.

Here's another option that might be a bigger change than you have in mind. Present a false choice where the player may approach a senior--the implication being that they're supposed to pick the one they want to belong to. In fact you'll be rejected by anyone save Damien, who will approach you if you choose wrongly three times. But if you approach senior class prez William, you may either ask, "Want me to belong to you?" or else, "I have a question about initiation..." and the latter brings up another menu, wherein you find, say, "How are the rules enforced?" whereupon he's forced to admit that they're not, and telling you to go get a teacher was a bit of obfuscation meant to make you "think twice before leaving," i.e., not consider the possibility at all. Bonus: This lets me confront the chief bully, which is what I really wanted, even if you don't get the option to make a scene of it.

#10 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

The answers William gives you should be pretty long and dull, like he's quoting from a manual he read on the subject, but a player who cares to read through all that will get the option-out eventually.

The idea is that it isn't really hidden, but it is boring to get to, so the people who get to it will mostly be either (a) looking for it or (b) exhausting every single decision as a matter of policy, in which case they will find a way out of the initiation one way or the other.

#11 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

Even better than having to apologize for doing nothing to Damien would be if, to that point in the game, the player had always been wearing some inventory item that has no obvious use, but that they evidently like. I happened to have glasses by that point in the game, but some would rather save their money.

Then Damien orders you to give it to him. He actually gives it back at the after-initiation party, but you don't know that ahead of time.

I suppose it would also work for him to straight up ask you for a dollar? Just a token, or a token amount, but in any case it is immediately obvious that the initiation is going to cost you something. Even if William tells you that you didn't have to do that, and you can ask him to get it back for you right away, the fact Damien's asking me for something that isn't free would put it beyond the line of politeness and into doing a favor for someone I don't know, who's done nothing to earn it.

#12 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

I just remembered something from a different part of the game that might be perfect!

As it stands, club sign ups are after initiation, but I see no reason they shouldn't happen before, possibly even on the same day. Ellen signs up for Victoria's sports club after some comparatively mild hassling from Victoria, and the player may choose to let Ellen pass or else support her, "You don't have to sign up if you don't want to."

If you let her pass, that indicates that low level harassment doesn't bother the player, and the initiation proceeds as normal.

If you support her, you don't get the menu that lets you take Damien's hand--the game will only let you stand up on your own. This doesn't stop you from pursuing Damien's route--he'll push you back down, you may acquiesce--but the choice you get is a lot clearer.

In addition to or instead of this, the significance of Damien's hand would be a lot clearer if he told you to kiss it.

#13 by hanako - Mar 21 2013

... yeah, I really think you need to finish playing the game (at least Ellen's path and Virginia's path - William's backstory might help but that's all in Damien's path) and then consider some Initiation-smashing fanfic once you have more idea of what's really going on.

All these suggestions would destroy various complex balanced elements and other plot threads and character dynamics. Which is fine for writing your own story but would not work with the game as designed.

I'm looking at a larger picture, including things that aren't even in the current game but are setups for later stories, so I really can't explain all of it, sorry... but while all these changes suggested are too big for the game, I'd be interested in seeing a story of what you think might happen!

#14 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

The thing where you interrogate William as a way to get out of the initiation could actually happen before the initiation, like if he invites you personally. That way you have less to write and you can actually back out of the initiation before it starts, like I wanted to. But it only works if you consider WALL O' TEXT to be a sufficient obstacle for the inattentive player.

#15 by hanako - Mar 21 2013

... and is drastically out of character for William in multiple ways.

Really. There's a lot going on in these early weeks, setting up storylines that will play out later, and I don't think any change small and subtle enough to be possible is going to have the effect you want.

So for now, I need to call a halt to this line of thought, sorry.

#16 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

Sorry.

Um, I'm going to have to go read some spoilers for Damien's path because there is really no way I am playing through it.

#17 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

No more suggestions til I at least finish the game once, but may I ask what's wrong with having Damien order you to kiss his hand? It seemed pretty subtle to me.

I probably should have given it its own post.

Sorry again. Shutting up now.

#18 by Spiky Caterpillar - Mar 21 2013

I'll note that, from a game design perspective, we try to avoid choices with no real effect. Going to three seniors to have the game tell the player 'But Thou Must Pick Damien' gives the player a feeling of futility, and means that players who want William/Big Steve/Angela/Isobel/Balthasar as their seniors will feel teased and disappointed. Wall-of-text as an obstacle is problematic for different reasons - deliberately adding boring sections to the story tends to bore readers. (Character-wise, William is not Kankri Vantas.)

As for the hand-kissing - it's a relatively subtle change, yes, but IMO it would make Damien look gauche and slightly sleazy. He's proud; that's not the image he wants to project.

#19 by LogicalDash - Mar 21 2013

It would be better if Damien's order were abrupt. If he didn't start with, "I think you should be my freshman" -- and, therefore, the player character couldn't say "okay" to that before the player had to make a choice about it.

"You're mine. Take my hand!"

At that point it's clear enough that the fact of taking his hand means accepting I'm his. I'd not have done that.

I'd still be kind of pissed at Victoria for taking me to the hazing and apparently not thinking to mention that the teachers weren't even involved. And when she asked me why I'd left I wouldn't even want to mention Damien, because it's nothing to do with him. Not having the option to skip out ahead of time is still weird, but if I've got Victoria to blame for it (and therefore lose relationship points with her) it seems less like the game's a bully and more like Victoria is, which jibes with the choice you get at the club signups.

#20 by LogicalDash - Mar 22 2013

Thanks, both of you, for talking me through this. I feel like I might have FINALLY answered Hanako's initial question, and apologize for taking you through my personal headcanon to get there.

#21 by hanako - Mar 22 2013

I do need to keep the "I think you should be mine" because that's part of Damien managing her initial reaction to him. However, I could drop the "Okay" from the player's response, so that it would go:

Damien: I think you should be mine.

Player: Um...

Damien: Stand up.

Player: But then I might be taller -

Damien: It's all right, you're with me. You don't have to worry about the rules if I'm with you. Only what I say matters. Here, take my hand, I'll help you up.

That way, she hasn't actually consented to anything yet until the offer of the hand, and he has just made a point about you obeying him.

#22 by LogicalDash - Mar 22 2013

Okay, that would help.

One tiny detail that doesn't show up properly in forum text: the final windowful of dialog should be, "Only what I say matters. Here, take my hand, I'll help you up." Both sentences.

This has to do with the way more mundane choices are presented in the game and visual novels in general. The last window before the prompt is normally a question, and the ones before it normally aren't, so I tend to consider my response as being a response to the last window, with the ones before providing additional context.

The last window is also the only one I remember in sharp enough detail that I can think about his wording and notice that it's kind of megalomaniacal.

You are a good samaritan.

#23 by LogicalDash - Apr 4 2013

I followed your advice and wrote some fanfic. It was really just to make myself feel better, but I think this one turned out pretty well: [Fanfiction](Magical Diary) The Antisocial Contract

It's late now, but I actually played through Damien's path, despite what I said up there. I had to sort of skim it, but I think I got the gist. I played to Sophomore a couple times as well.

If you don't want to hear any more suggestions from me, I can understand that. I find my own obsession on the matter pretty tedious.

Otherwise...

"Take his hand" becomes "Hold his hand to stand up". This way it's clear that you're depending on his support, and that is something more than a harmless politeness.*

An additional option for that prompt, "Stay seated" or "Wait" or something similarly obstinate. For the purposes of the game's script it's the same as standing up, though probably with different dialog since you're basically ignoring Damien altogether and I don't think he'd take that well. It is quite different for the purposes of roleplay, because as you note, standing up "on your own" sounds adventurous, and my character wasn't adventurous, just sober and sensible. To stand up also means obeying William's command ("stand and wait, and we will choose"), and I'd have avoided letting him see me do that, at least.*

"Here, take my hand" becomes just "Take my hand". It's still the sort of thing one might say as an offer rather than an order, but this way makes the grammatical imperative harder to miss.

When meeting William after initiation, have Mary berate him for giving Ellen a hard time. (Either in addition to, or instead of, her earlier noticing Ellen having difficulty tolerating initiation.) He brushes it off with the excuse that she didn't have to do what he said. This doesn't need to be a choice at all; just an early clue that a way around initiation exists, so that people who are annoyed enough to load a saved game will think to do so.

When the player starts a new game--perhaps only the very first time--show a page of instructions, really basic stuff. On that page, encourage the player to save before difficult choices. This is actually commonsense advice for software in general, but I wasn't really following it because I hadn't yet figured this game for the sort that has multiple, mutually exclusive paths. In more linear games I get pretty lazy with save-game management; in more freeform ones, The Sims for instance, I keep going after making bad decisions, because none of them actually lock me out of anything, and cleaning up my own mess can be fun.

* This one may be more explicit than you want. Some players will choose the refusal option just because it's there, but more will choose this one because they want to be jerks. Which kind of was what I wanted to be, in that situation.

I found it strange when I met William after the initiation that I wasn't in, and we both acted like friendly acquaintances. It was before I got to hear what a president's duties really involved, so I only knew him as the ringleader of a gang of bullies that happened to include the entire senior class. But that's not a problem with the choice this thread is about.