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Non-Pentachromatic systems of Magic?


Bej the Super Mage

Non-Pentachromatic systems of Magic?

#1 by Bej the Super Mage - Mar 16 2023

So one time, while I was replaying Wolf Hall for the umptillionth time (Never gonna get tired of either it or Horse Hall. Will absolutely eat up Snake Hall if it does actually get made one day.), I got curious about some things that Grabiner and Ms. Darden said. "Training in Hoodoo there would bring a valuable perspective to your magic. The pentachromatic system, however, is not so different from your own. What then, is the point?". And then, "You're wondering why I didn't take the title." "... Yeah." "I'm not one of those 'Pentachromatic' witches. Not my system. Wouldn't make sense.". Not to mention one of the responses MC has to Grabiner's question "Hey, I'm not an expert. I'm just starting out. If the way they do things here is too different, it'll just confuse me when I go back home to finish studying right? This is just a taste of what it's like to be somewhere else. When I'm older, I can study in more depth."

This makes me very curious about the (seemingly more than one) magic system of the Magical Diary world. Does spellcasting exist outside of the Pentachromatic System? In America, is it a specific specialty for Iris that sets it apart among all the american schools? Does Illyria have it too, either under a different name or just something similar? And what does Hoodoo provide that would seemingly be a 'valuable perspective'? This is very interesting for me as I am kind of an absolute nerd about magic in these kinds of stories Laughing

Draxynnic

Re: Non-Pentachromatic systems of Magic?

#2 by Draxynnic - Mar 17 2023

The impression I have is that magic is magic, but there are different approaches and interpretations to how you practice it. These different approaches probably have different strengths and weaknesses, so knowing magic from multiple traditions probably generates a wider base of magical knowledge.

The impression I get is that Iris Academy's pentachromatic system is essentially a European (probably English - Grabiner says that it's not much different from the Illyrian system, but it sounds like it's even more similar to what he grew up with himself) system that was brought over by European colonists and has only had a few centuries to drift. Hoodoo is probably an African-American equivalent, while there appear to be Native American traditions that disbar outsiders.

If magical traditions have developed similarly to real-world philosophy and natural philosophy, a system with European roots is probably going to have Greek influences, especially if it's a tradition which treats magic more as an academic than a religious subject (which Iris seems to do). Illyrian magic is likely to be particularly similar to Greek, especially if the magical Illyrians in their apparently hidden kingdom managed to avoid what happened to the mundane Illyrians during the decline of the Byzantine Empire. So that's probably where the similarities come from - pentachromatic probably brings in a number of influences which include Greek, while the Illyrian system might not be directly derived from Greek but likely has at least common ancestry, giving it some common elements.

jamesfelicia

Re: Non-Pentachromatic systems of Magic?

#3 by jamesfelicia - Sep 20 2023

I saw the Pentachromatic system as being an approach to magic that takes a more scientific or rational approach to the concept while not entirely separating from the holistic nature of it. It matches with the development of science in Europe, and science of course also had its influences on western esotericism. The same way the sciences get separated into subfields, they would separate magic in a similar way. The full spectrum, "white magic", separated into several different bands and closely looking into the uses of specific wavelengths to make use of their specialized functions. The importance of a holistic look into magic is undeniable though. Not all light is even visible, white magic studies are literally infinite according to Wolf PC. Hence we have white magic classes. In Wolf Hall the holistic nature of white magic helping in understanding the big picture is actually mechanically enforced with study in white magic making you less likely to fail at learning in all classes.

Now, for wild guessing... Iris Academy is the "most European of American schools" so I think it must deviate somehow from the European system. My guess is that the schools in Europe perhaps separated the bands of "White magic" even further. They might have a full rainbow of colors for the visible spectrum, with studies into "White magic" encompassing things outside of what is visible. This would make sense, the carryover of knowledge for Wolf PC would be easy this way, and Iris Academy really does not add much variety to the magic he would learn so of course Grabby criticizes this.

One thing I want to note about the pentachromatic system is that all of its magic is very straightforward and can be explained in some very simple terms. "This spell adds energy", "This spell removes energy", "This spell opens", "This spell closes", "This spell calls spirits to you", "This spell drives spirits away". And complicated spells are created by chaining one spell and another. "This spell creates fire" "This spell teleports" so... "This spell creates and teleports fire". It's logical and consistent.

Non-chromatic magic likely comes at this from a different angle, teaching magic that's a bit more finicky, and more specific. I can imagine spell effects like "This spell calms down felines" or "This spell invokes bad luck with violent actions" being things that the pentachromatic system would struggle to process efficiently because pentachromatic magic comes at things too logically. Maybe you need to calm a dozen angry cats but not accidentally mass calm your allies. A pentachromatic witch might need to cast a powerful and general "Spell of calming" multiple times. Inventing a new spell to only target felines would take up more mana because of how the logic of chaining simple spells works. They add more words to a sentence instead of creating new words entirely. A more specific spell from another tradition that already specifically calms down only felines would probably be more efficient, and could be cast on everyone surrounding you safely, but wouldn't be easy to find other uses for. We can talk about the pros and cons of both approaches all day, but a pentachromatic witch with lots of mana and creativity to match can accomplish almost anything.

As for St. John's Academy and "The Root", we don't have too much to go on but during classes Grabby specifically notes that the spell of "Silence" would not stop Pentachromatic students from casting their spells because they don't need noises as part of their magic. That does imply that it could work to prevent spells from students of other traditions. I recall a scene where Wolf PC rings the bell for the librarian Ms. Darden, who graduated St. John's academy. The bell's high-pitched sound hurts and he chooses to sit and watch the door, but she suddenly appears behind the desk having either teleported or messed with his senses somehow. (Or perhaps Wolf PC just dozed off cause it was early in the morning). I think we did get to see a little bit of magic here, and the bell may be specifically enchanted to inform Ms. Darden it had rung and who had rung it. A spell of silence might reasonably impact a part of this magic.

Wolf PC also gets zapped to sleep if he tries to sneak a look behind the librarian's desk. This probably has nothing to do with sounds. "The Root" is a blending of multiple traditions, so while some magic might work specifically through sounds, it's not likely that all of it does.

Sacred Smoke... we know very little about but we do know that their academy is selective about who they will allow in. A European noble most certainly would not be allowed to study there. I don't believe there's any information to find on how their magic works. They probably have good reason to keep their secrets hidden and nobody seems to make a big deal out of it.

Of course a lot of this is just my thoughts and observations. We don't have too much to go on and I hope others might share what they see.

Draxynnic

Re: Non-Pentachromatic systems of Magic?

#4 by Draxynnic - Nov 5 2023

I'm sceptical that the colour analogy goes as far as 'white' being a combination of all colours, especially since that would also lead to 'black' being colourless, which does not appear to be the case. Instead, they probably just associate spirits with white, just as nature magic is associated with green (although pentachromatic green is probably more accurately regarded as biological magic). The colours are simply labels for the categories.

I do get the impression, though, that it is a more hermetic, scholarly system that seems to treat magic as a science - which means it's likely derived from European systems. Said European systems might divide magic up differently, but the approach is similar enough.

More religiously-oriented systems could well have restrictions that a hermetic system doesn't. For instance, I've come across magic systems where casting a spell requires getting your mind in the right... state of mind, for want of a better term... to shape mana into a spell. A more academic system might train practitioners to be able to achieve the right frame of mind without the need for outside aids. This would make them slower to learn, but once they have learned a spell, little short of direct counter magic can stop them. A more spiritual tradition might incorporate ritualistic elements in their spells, allowing them to learn powerful spells more quickly, but only if they're able to perform the ritual. Tie them up and gag them and, well... maybe they've performed the ritual enough that they can imagine it in their head and it works, but maybe they haven't.

I could see spiritual traditions also having spells that were taught by spirits associated with their tradition, which might work even if they don't really understand why, while a more academic tradition might prefer to only use magic that they genuinely understand.

As an aside, from memory Grabiner expresses doubt that Wolf PC could get into Sacred Smoke, so it does appear to have some degree of exclusivity.

St John's, by the name, sounds like it might be a specifically Christian magic school. Which probably means it's still close to European, but if Christian and 'secular'* traditions have diverged, then Iris might still be closer to the kind of magic Wolf PC would be expected to learn at home. Religious traditions, even coming from the same religion, are probably also going to have greater degrees of regional variation than academic ones.

*There's probably a limit to how secular you can truly be in a community where you know spirits are real. Nevertheless, there's still likely a distinction between recognising that spirits are real when you genuinely interact with them every so often and need to be aware of the dangers they might represent, and being religious.

hanako

Re: Non-Pentachromatic systems of Magic?

#5 by hanako - Nov 5 2023

(St John's is specifically mentioned to be involved with hoodoo.)

Draxynnic

Re: Non-Pentachromatic systems of Magic?

#6 by Draxynnic - Nov 5 2023

Thinking further on things, one thing that strikes me is that Iris seems fairly small - a few dozen students per grade, and while there are teachers of other grades, it's telling that two teachers, including the headmistress, cover all of the first-year classes except PE. This could simply be a reflection of how few magic users there are... but it could also be that the pentachromatic system is a fairly 'generalist' system employed by a school that just doesn't have the resources to allow students to specialise as much as they might like.

Meanwhile, there are mentions that the European society is dominated by aristocratic magical families and many of the American families emigrated to get away from that. I could see the European system being one where noble families sponsor (or directly run) academies. Such academies might be better funded than Iris, allowing for more potential to specialise in general... particularly in areas that are of specific interest to the family. Naturally, however, the families probably also have tightly guarded secrets that are kept within the family. Wolf PC's home school, for instance, might be known for magics related to managing magical forests, but only the heir will have the opportunity to learn all the secrets necessary for the Mantle of the Woods.

Draxynnic

Re: Non-Pentachromatic systems of Magic?

#7 by Draxynnic - Nov 5 2023

hanako:

(St John's is specifically mentioned to be involved with hoodoo.)
Ah, I'd forgotten that link had been made. That would make it a mix of some Christian (which would explain the name) with otherwise mostly African-origin practices. Which certainly explains why Iris would be closer to European traditions!
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