Hanako Games

#1 by Ellume - Feb 19 2011

0.3.8

Is it a bug that you can inscribe something onto the illusionary wall in dungeon 3?

#2 by hanako - Feb 20 2011

We're still debating the metaphysics of that one.

#3 by Riviera - Feb 20 2011

My personal take on it:

Until the caster is aware that it is an illusion, it will probably appear to have all the characteristics of a wall. Your belief in some way will reinforce and help strengthen it, so you really should be able to inscribe things on it. Since not only are you feeding into the magic that makes it seem real simply by your belief, you're further doing so by attempting to actually effect it.

If you are aware that it's not solid, it disrupts the entire illusion and thus you wouldn't be able to write on it.

So for simplicity's sake, it seems like you should be able to write on it.

Unless you'd rather that be another way for you to discover fake walls.

#4 by hanako - Feb 20 2011

Some of the black magic effects penetrate the illusion because the 'feedback' you get from the wall when trying to affect it is wrong. So even though you believe it's a real wall and are trying to use stone-changing magic on it, you get the sense while doing so that there's something not-right about the stones. They don't quite resonate correctly to your Black Magic senses.

However, magical writing doesn't seem like something that would give a lot of feedback, and it's more logical to reward use of inspection than inscription, so for the moment it doesn't work.

#5 by Ellume - Feb 20 2011

My take on it was that an illusionary object is a fixed object, and any attempt to alter its state will reveal that it isn't what it appears. Also when I read the "Blazing a trail for you to follow" I thought "maybe it is in regards to trying to inscribe walls to find the illusion?" as if it was an example of what to do. I know it could also be in reference to detect trail or whatever the green magic is.

I think of something like an illusionary phone, it looks real but if you try to use it then you know its fake. Or a door, you try to open it and then you know it isn't real. Or in case of the wall, if you try to alter/inscribe it, then you know it's an illusion. These are all based off the idea that an illusionary object is a static image, like a picture of something.

#6 by hanako - Feb 20 2011

It's a little more than just an image, though, or you could walk through it or run your hands along all the walls to find the exit.

#7 by Ellume - Feb 20 2011

Sounds like it is figuring out the definitional for what illusion means in this world lol. Or perhaps not even illusion but something else. Not quite an image, as it takes on properties of real matter. Sounds like a conjured wall with properties of a wall. Perhaps held in existence only by the magic of the caster, when the magic holding it in existence is disrupted then it fades. But then why does track scent work? Simply knowing that someone has walked through the wall shouldn't make it disappear. Ellen figured out which wall was fake and it didn't disappear for her. But if it has properties of a real wall you can feel and write on, then why does it collapse when jumped at?

If it is simply an image or mental illusion (not physical) then you could say the magic causes the image to behave as the observer would expect, and the observer can 'feel' what they believe is there. The wall acts as real as the person viewing it believes it is real. But if you throw your shoe at the wall, the shoe will still go through, because it isn't actually a physical wall. After your show goes through, you can't hold the belief the wall is real, and so you could walk through effortlessly.

Theoretical discussion on a factitious topic xD

#8 by Riviera - Feb 20 2011

I don't think it collapses when you jump at it, exactly. It's just that when you stand and look at it and interact with it normally, your brain is actively tricking you, as Ellen said.

If you jump at it, again like she said, you're forcing your brain into the position of not being able to do that.

It reminds me of the Hitchhiker's Guide, and how they tell you that if you jump and miss the ground, you'll fly. You have to be distracted at like the last second in order to actually miss the ground. Your brain is what defeats you. Curse you, brain!

#9 by hanako - Feb 20 2011

That's why I split it off, it's fun to debate.

There are many different ways to make an illusion in this world, of course! It's certainly possible to make an illusionary wall that is just an image and nothing else. That would be pure Blue magic. If you tried to touch it, your hand would go right through. If you tried to Inscribe it, nothing would happen. You could walk through it without problems. Walking through it wouldn't make it disappear (unless some extra trigger was set up).

You could make things more confusing by using Red magic to create a forcefield, then covering it with a Blue illusion. That way you could have something that looked like a wall, felt like a wall, and couldn't be walked through. Inscription would do nothing because there's not really a wall to write on. Disbelieving it wouldn't do anything either - just knowing that it's a forcefield which looks like a wall wouldn't make it go away. If you jumped at that, you'd bounce off.

[And I should probably cut the rest of this post and leave it at that, rather than going on to talk about mind-based illusions. ]

#10 by Ellume - Feb 20 2011

And now I wonder about what you would say in regards to mind-based illusions.

So I guess that the wall in question is a combination of blue for the visual image, white for the mental illusion, and possible some amount of red to add the physical characteristics.

And as for whether inscription works to find the illusion, I guess it is really up to whatever you want lol. You can just make it so it works regardless of choice. I however was surprised to find that when I used inscription on the illusion it didn't reveal it, as I thought "if I try to write on the wall I will know if it is an illusion or not". After some thought inspection does make more sense, but I saw that there was other inscriptions on the walls so I thought it would work.