Grabiner Comeuppance?

Wyllow

#1 by Wyllow - Jun 15 2012

This post will have spoilers for Grabby & Damien's paths.

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I have some questions and comments.

My first play through my character totally fell for Donald, but ended up married to Grabiner. The thought of ending up with a teacher freaked me a bit. But I figured maybe I'd make it to the friend ending, see how that went or something.

And then the secret gets out, and he takes my char (your char) into an empty classroom, livid with rage, uses forceful magic on her, pressing her to the wall in total utter violence - in what to me seemed terrifyingly abusive. And I never came across an option to cuss him out for that.

He finds out the truth, comes and apologies makes a milkwater excuse about how he's 'always apologising' but there's no chance to tell him 'You were violent. You scared/terrified/frightened me. You threatened to lock me away and you think I'll actually accept your apology?!'

If there's a chance suggestions for updates will be listened to? I'd would like a chance to play that again and get to shout at him. Or if not shout, whisper that he was terrifying.

It feels like he just gets this excuse to have been violent with no consequences. Which feels really odd when afterwards I ended up playing through with a different character who matched up with Damien and even in a circumstance where she liked the guy before things went very wrong - she gets to point out repeatedly that he hurt her, lied to her, tricked her and TRIED TO KILL HER. That it makes him untrustworthy.

And he ends up doing some groveling and reflection. At the very least.

But a grown man who threatens to lock a young girl away, doesn't get told his behavior was as unacceptable?

And that's not counting not having any faith in her or her own want and need for privacy. However you want his suspicions or conceptions to play out - where are the repercussions for being violently angry?

What did I miss?

Wraith_Magus

#2 by Wraith_Magus - Jun 15 2012

Haha! But that's supposed to be one of his charms, if you go down his path.

Sue says it herself: He's apparently into bondage, so if you want to go down his path, you'll just have to like it, too. It's one of those "diversity of romantic option" things.

At least, I presume that's why he's so popular. That "50 Shades of Gray" thing is going around...

hanako

#3 by hanako - Jun 15 2012

The apology he makes to you when he first comes to your room is pretty pitiful, yes.

(Skip this if you want as I don't want people to feel forced to read the character's intentions this way if they don't wish to. But this is how it was for him.)

While his initial apology is pretty pathetic, from his perspective his explanation that comes a bit further down the line IS groveling. Not only does he apologise to you repeatedly, but he 'disarms' himself to you, making it clear to you that he cannot harm you and giving up any ability to control you later.

For him, that's a very big deal.

An ordinary student who failed to follow the rules would be mind-wiped and sent home. You, as his wife, cannot be. The only thing he can do if you push him far enough is a terrible thing that he really does not want to do. Locking you up in the dungeon is a horrible thing and he absolutely doesn't want to do it.

Terrifying you is the only thing he can think of to turn you away from that fate. It was the only weapon he thought he had. In general, he scares the crap out of students to try and protect them, because he knows how easy it is for young witches and wizards to do something stupid and lose their magic, their souls, or their lives.

He treated you like a young child too stupid to know that running into the road will get you killed.

Explaining all this to you is, from his perspective, giving you power over him and acknowledging you as a full adult.

As for why there's no option to yell at him - mostly because I can't see it going any other way than this:

Mary Sue: You were violent. You scared/terrified/frightened me. You threatened to lock me away and you think I'll actually accept your apology?!

Grabiner: No. I do not.

... and him then walking away and keeping his distance from you for the entire rest of the game, because he knows he's done wrong and doesn't think he should be forgiven. Which would mean that anyone romancing him would have to actively avoid choosing that option. And that, in my opinion, would be worse than not having the option at all.

I'm definitely willing to add another option for how to respond to him when he shows up with his pathetic apology that first morning, if you have suggestions for ways Mary Sue can respond without breaking the fragile connection between them.

A threeway choice of "Okay" "You scared me" "I will never forgive you" would make it obvious that the last choice will kill the relationship... would that be enough, or would it still feel frustrating that you could not yell at him properly?

Wyllow

#4 by Wyllow - Jun 15 2012

Hanako,

1. At least your explanation doesn't involve 'bondage' for which I was quite, ticked off. As nothing about what he does is safe, sane or consensual. And whether the character is his wife, or an underage/young girl (and both just makes it worse to me) - I'm terrifying to you (potentially abusive) in order to protect you - is, frankly, an abusers excuse. Second under 'If you didn't make me so mad....'

2. I had no problem prior to him being part disgruntled teacher, part 'these young people will get themselves in trouble'. Not every teacher has to actively enjoy teaching, or seem like they even like the students or teach for the same reasons, etc...etc... It's the whole 'pushed against the wall, anger seeming out of control, anger at NOT being able to control someone else'. It doesn't come across protective to me at all. I kept thinking 'omg, I didn't do anything and he's gonna strangle her half to death - wtf bad ending?'

Especially with one of the first questions people asked is 'Does he hurt you?' And that seems ridiculous cause it all happened to protect you. And then.. he DOES hurt you.

See, if the rumors were (and that's another thing that makes it seem abusive. This is all based on RUMORS) that you summoned a being or something. Or that you were messing around with his bound creature. That's a reckless kind of 'What do you think you're doing?!!!'. Heck, if you were doing Damien's and Grabiner's paths somehow at the same time? It'd make sense for him to have a freak out, if you just almost got eaten and talk about locking you away for your own good! That would seem protective and 'you silly, unknowing child!'.

The accusations of 'you feel you're special - know you're not, you just want to impress people, you're abusing my patience and 'good nature'? That's bits and pieces of an abuser's spiel.

I'll have to think about how to phrase an option, I guess. Because I'm not quite sure a) what you want b) what would be too much work for you and I didn't get a further explanation, since I didn't want anything further to do with him at, all. And I just paused to look up the walkthrough, and it doesn't go into detail.

Off the top of my head, however? Options would be to say how before he had his tantrum, that people were asking if he'd hurt you, and you didn't have to lie. Or you can flinch from his presence. Or point out that he scared you more than the magical being, because he has more control over your life. Or can you just not speak to him then? If Damien can write you an apology note, why not put Grabiner in the same position of having to slip one under your door, so you can get more of his inner thoughts? Maybe include an option of going into his class, thinking you can handle it, and having to walk back out again because you're still upset, before that note happens. Hell, why not threaten to tell his father how he's treating his new wife - though that one seems less romance indusing.

Cause seriously, to me there's a huge difference between grumbly teacher who buys you a hot tea when you wear yourself out / wants to make sure he's not thought of as a 'friend' but an authority figure. And 'I am your husband. And I can twist the concept of protection into locking you away from your family, light, air and the world and you little missy can do nothing to stop me'.

Heck, what about an option to talk to Postdam about what he just did?

I don't know. I'll think about it more, maybe I need distance to not think how weird it is that wrestling with forgiving Damien seems quite fine, but there isn't a similar option with Grabiner and I'm being told to 'just accept that's the way he is'; He's more of an ___hole than a demon who'd planned to eat your soul.

ETA:

I seem to have missed your threeway choice, apologies. 'You scared me' seems like the start of a conversation, at least. Or 'You hurt me'. Though I suppose it was more terror than physical stuff.

PS: In case it's not clear? I do enjoy your game, very much. I enjoy the writing. I especially enjoy the chance to create a character that's close to my ethnicity or those within my family. And Donald's path is wonderful and first rate and I was happily surprised at Damien's (that's the one I expected to be far more abusive). I'm even having patience to see if there are aspects to Minnie and Kyo I miss (since I haven't gotten a different ending with them - is that even possible?). But oh! Speaking of. Perhaps an option to point out that Grabiner is acting like Kyo (squared)? Cause he seemed to have a clue when my char went to tell him what was happening.

hanako

#5 by hanako - Jun 15 2012

I agree that what he does is pretty unpleasant and not part of a healthy relationship.

I hesitate to quite call it an abusive relationship because of my understanding of the character. He did his best to scare the living daylights out of her for a reason. He did not physically harm the progatonist and would never do such a thing. He wasn't making use of her for his own pleasure, like Damien was. He did do something wrong under pressure, but he doesn't act like that regularly and has tried to take steps to see that it couldn't happen again. Imperfect people make mistakes; yelling at someone in a scary way does not make you irredeemable.

However, I have no problem with a player feeling that it's way too far over the line for them and not wanting to go on with him.

Quite honestly the man needs therapy, and probably a new job.

As for the writing problem I'm facing:

Options would be to say how before he had his tantrum, that people were asking if he'd hurt you, and you didn't have to lie. Or you can flinch from his presence. Or point out that he scared you more than the magical being, because he has more control over your life. Or can you just not speak to him then? If Damien can write you an apology note, why not put Grabiner in the same position of having to slip one under your door, so you can get more of his inner thoughts?

Grabiner would never do a thing like that. He would not pursue her, because he doesn't *want* her. He's not in love with her, he's not trying to use her, and he's completely okay with her staying away from him for the next year. He's not like Damien.

If she makes it clear that he's done something irreparable, he will nod, accept that, and withdraw. Forever.

Which is fine if that's what the player wants. If his behavior crossed a line for you and you never want to see him privately again, telling him off and getting that reaction is fine.

The thing is that many players go through this and do still want to continue the romance. I don't want to put in a 'yell at him' option and make them have to actively choose not to yell at him in order to continue the romance. The way it's written, the impression I'm trying to give is that Mary Sue was so overwhelmed by what happened that she couldn't manage to put her feelings into words. So she could still BE very angry or very scared, she just wasn't able to express those things.

Having a choice of "be angry" or "Be okay with it" means that to continue the romance you have to state that your character isn't angry... and I don't think that's appropriate. She should be angry!

Do you see what I'm getting at? I don't want people who DO want to continue Grabiner's story forced to become complicit in his behavior.

And 'I am your husband. And I can twist the concept of protection into locking you away from your family, light, air and the world and you little missy can do nothing to stop me'

Heck, what about an option to talk to Postdam about what he just did?

It's not him twisting the concept into that. Under the magical legal system, that is what would actually have to happen if Mary Sue pushed things far enough that she was no longer able to continue as a student.

Expelled students get mind-wiped and sent home. But she can't be mind-wiped and sent home until after the divorce, or Grabiner would lose his magic. Professor Potsdam would enforce putting her in the dungeon for that year.

He isn't inventing this threat - he's trying to avoid it.

hanako

#6 by hanako - Jun 15 2012

(And in case it's not clear, I do appreciate the feedback!

)

Wyllow

#7 by Wyllow - Jun 15 2012

hanako:

I hesitate to quite call it an abusive relationship because of my understanding of the character. He did his best to scare the living daylights out of her for a reason.

See, I don't think I ever got the reason. Which might be just me. But flipping out over suspecting but not having facts that she did anything and his prejudice at seeming to think wildseeds get into trouble more than those born to magic -- I didn't see the reason as to why he behaved the way he did.

So maybe, 'You scared me' and 'Why?' - Whether it's; why did you think I would do that, why did you react like that...

Or maybe nothing about Grabiner will satisfy me and I should just do my best to avoid him completely in the game all the time.

I know you aren't telling me that, but I'm kind feeling that 15% a bit that you're saying 'maybe this kind of romance isn't part of the game you'll enjoy'. It's great you want to leave options open for others - I just wish there was a way it could be explored, with her being angry/upset, etc...

And it feels frustrating since you did do it for Damien. And because you keep mentioning that you know what's going through his (Grabiner's) head. Which is great, for you. But your writing has been set off into the universe. I'm not you. I can only interpret what I'm given from what's provided.

So now via conversation here I find out Potsdam would have backed him up in locking Sue away, etc. And she's got no recourse if he ever loses his temper like that again - she's just got to figure out magical society on her own and the rules and take his reactions. Which is how it feels.

Edit: Maybe that's what's bothering me the most. It (perhaps unknowingly) mimics abusive situations where you end up walking on eggshells, not sure what will set someone off, and in a situation where you're dependent and have no options. I don't find that romantic.

hanako

#8 by hanako - Jun 15 2012

But your writing has been set off into the universe. I'm not you. I can only interpret what I'm given from what's provided.

I know, that's why I'm spoil-marking that stuff and saying you don't have to take it into account. On the other hand, he *does* explain the majority of what I've said here but you have to keep talking to him in order for him to do it.

So now via conversation here I find out Potsdam would have backed him up in locking Sue away, etc. And she's got no recourse if he ever loses his temper like that again - she's just got to figure out magical society on her own and the rules and take his reactions. Which is how it feels.

Sorry, I'm apparently not being clear. Potsdam would not have approved him throwing Mary Sue into the dungeon for accidentally revealing their marriage - but he would never have done it for such a reason anyway. And he explains that in the later conversation. He cannot and would not expel you simply for embarrassing him. He is bound by the rules even more than you are. Once he's explained in great detail that the threat was a bluff, he cannot try to scare you in that same way again.

However, if you break enough school rules that Potsdam would ordinarily have to expel you, she would have to put you in the dungeons because she can't keep you as a student and she can't send you home.

Edit:

Anyway, the explanations are diverging a bit from the goal of looking at ways for MS to respond to the original limp apology. I'm thinking about it.

"Why would you do that?" is a question she could ask that would still leave avenues open. He probably wouldn't give much of an explanation at first, especially not standing in a hallway.

Mary Sue: Why? Why would you treat me - or anyone - that way?

Grabiner: To frighten you.

Mary Sue: (sulky) Well, it certainly did that.

Grabiner: As the lid is off the box, I will make the appropriate announcements.

Grabiner: Once it is clear that you are under my protection, fear of reprisals should discourage at least some of the attention.

Grabiner: It is... a useful tool.

I hope he doesn't expect me to thank him for being terrifying.

(so, the above as an option that does not break the romance, and then the 'Do you expect me to forgive you???' 'No." option that DOES end the romance. She can chew him out for a few more lines, and he'll stand there and let her, but he won't speak to her again in private after that.
Would that work?)

Wyllow

#9 by Wyllow - Jun 15 2012

hanako:

Anyway, the explanations are diverging a bit from the goal of looking at ways for MS to respond to the original limp apology. I'm thinking about it.

"Why would you do that?" is a question she could ask that would still leave avenues open. He probably wouldn't give much of an explanation at first, especially not standing in a hallway.

Mary Sue: Why? Why would you treat me - or anyone - that way?

Grabiner: To frighten you.

Mary Sue: (sulky) Well, it certainly did that.

Grabiner: As the lid is off the box, I will make the appropriate announcements.

Grabiner: Once it is clear that you are under my protection, fear of reprisals should discourage at least some of the attention.

Grabiner: It is... a useful tool.

I hope he doesn't expect me to thank him for being terrifying.
(so, the above as an option that does not break the romance, and then the 'Do you expect me to forgive you???' 'No." option that DOES end the romance. She can chew him out for a few more lines, and he'll stand there and let her, but he won't speak to her again in private after that.
Would that work?)

Question - why sulky? Would emotional work? Leaving it up to the person playing if the emotion is upset, sadness, anger, terror, etc?

And does this mean there's something added to the later scenes? Is there text of those somewhere on the forums?

I ask because you mention there's more explanations to come, but having not experienced them, I do not know if they already relate to having the option to ask him why?

As in 'Why frighten me?' or 'Is frightening people always your first choice?'

hanako

#10 by hanako - Jun 15 2012

I'm just adding a 'sulky' note there to make it clear that her facial expression changes, that's all. How you choose to interpret the expression is still as much up to you as it usually is.

Both of the next two conversations with Grabiner on his path include him apologising and explaining what happened. Trying to cut and paste large sections of script onto the forum would get messy!

If you talk to him later that same day, along with his apologies he admits that he shouldn't have leapt to conclusions about the rumor because you have always behaved in an honorable fashion (assuming that's true, of course. If you have behaved in ways he disapproves of, then you can't get into his room to have this conversation in the first place and the path ends here.) and that you deserve to be treated with respect.

The next conversation with you goes into detail about how and why he uses fear with people in general, why he was trying to scare you, how much of the threat was real, and so on.

Both of these conversations happen in private and are designed to show his growing trust of you and ability to relate to you as a person. He couldn't possibly tell you all these things in the corridor that morning

Wraith_Magus

#11 by Wraith_Magus - Jun 15 2012

While it might be a little past that, for the record, when I said "bondage", that was a joke. Like with the "spanking", that's just Sue's snarking. He's actually rather put off by those comments. I figured that would have been obvious, but...

And the point where Grabiner explains himself only happens at the very end if you are going for a romantic relationship (by emphasizing that you're his wife). I'm not sure if you actually saw that part, since it doesn't seem like you did.

For what it's worth, I can kind of understand where you're coming from on this, there are certainly people who aren't appreciative of being scared or powerless, and want to make some sort of action to try to claim back some sort of sense of control, no matter how ill-advised...

At the same time, well, that's kind of the way many of these Otome Game relationships tend to go - your character is typically a little fish around characters much more powerful than herself, and the relationships she forms may well be with people who are dominating in the relationship. Just look at the popularity poll, and you'll see Grabiner has a pretty clear lead.

Wyllow

#12 by Wyllow - Jun 15 2012

hanako:
I
Both of these conversations happen in private and are designed to show his growing trust of you and ability to relate to you as a person. He couldn't possibly tell you all these things in the corridor that morning

Yes, I see. So the 'sulky' was the image expression, not the text. That's what I'd wondered about.

And explanations coming later make sense to me, if there's a chance when he makes that incredibly thrice used tea bag excuse - to point out that he'd done something alarming, seems very helpful. Thank you.

Wyllow

#13 by Wyllow - Jun 15 2012

Wraith_Magus:

At the same time, well, that's kind of the way many of these Otome Game relationships tend to go - your character is typically a little fish around characters much more powerful than herself, and the relationships she forms may well be with people who are dominating in the relationship. Just look at the popularity poll, and you'll see Grabiner has a pretty clear lead.

I don't care. I'm not being rude, or harsh, I don't care about his popularity. I'm not trying to fight the trope of lost girl and older man and domination, or relationship sim tropes, or bad boy tropes or the like - that'd be another conversation for another time, probably with different people.

I also don't care there are people who like 50 shades of whatever, and think that's an actual healthy BDSM relationship - at least I don't care past hoping they don't go looking for one, and find themselves used and abused and exploited because they think that's how it's supposed to go.

I'm grateful the creators are willing to put up an option that calls Grabiner's behavior inexcusable and unforgivable AND an option to at least say he scared/hurt you if you'd like to attempt the friendship ending (if there is one) or if you go for an actual romantic thing.

Magical Diary's managed to include and combine so much world, social, human awareness and at least touch upon so many complex things - I was surprised there wasn't a chance for the character to respond to Grabiner when his apology is so incredibly lacking.

People come to games for different things, enjoy them for different reasons. I found this game through a social awareness gaming blog and expected certain things from it, especially after playing it and having really wonderful moments I haven't had anywhere else.

I did not get or enjoy your joking.

Wraith_Magus

#14 by Wraith_Magus - Jun 15 2012

Wyllow:
Wraith_Magus:

At the same time, well, that's kind of the way many of these Otome Game relationships tend to go - your character is typically a little fish around characters much more powerful than herself, and the relationships she forms may well be with people who are dominating in the relationship. Just look at the popularity poll, and you'll see Grabiner has a pretty clear lead.

I don't care. I'm not being rude, or harsh, I don't care about his popularity. I'm not trying to fight the trope of lost girl and older man and domination, or relationship sim tropes, or bad boy tropes or the like - that'd be another conversation for another time, probably with different people.

I also don't care there are people who like 50 shades of whatever, and think that's an actual healthy BDSM relationship - at least I don't care past hoping they don't go looking for one, and find themselves used and abused and exploited because they think that's how it's supposed to go.

I'm grateful the creators are willing to put up an option that calls Grabiner's behavior inexcusable and unforgivable AND an option to at least say he scared/hurt you if you'd like to attempt the friendship ending (if there is one) or if you go for an actual romantic thing.

Magical Diary's managed to include and combine so much world, social, human awareness and at least touch upon so many complex things - I was surprised there wasn't a chance for the character to respond to Grabiner when his apology is so incredibly lacking.

People come to games for different things, enjoy them for different reasons. I found this game through a social awareness gaming blog and expected certain things from it, especially after playing it and having really wonderful moments I haven't had anywhere else.

I did not get or enjoy your joking.

Actually, you didn't really get much of what I said.

That thing that Grabiner did was what he did specifically because you aren't in a relationship, friendly or romantic. That's why he has to break down and explain himself if you actually do develop one.

There is no BDSM relationship, and I don't think anyone was asking for one.

Further, the extreme emotional need to react to a perceived loss of control is, ultimately self-destructive and abusive, as well. In fact, not "as well", that's basically the same thing you're angry at Grabiner for in the first place.

Wyllow

#15 by Wyllow - Jun 15 2012

Wraith_Magus:

Further, the extreme emotional need to react to a perceived loss of control is, ultimately self-destructive and abusive, as well. In fact, not "as well", that's basically the same thing you're angry at Grabiner for in the first place.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. But if you think speaking up for oneself, against someone being angry and physical with you, is equal to being angry and physical to someone. We have nothing further to talk about.

FantasyFan

#16 by FantasyFan - Jun 15 2012

(darts eyes back and forth like watching a tennis game) Well, this has been an interesting read from both sides. I don't think I've looked so deeply into Grabner's path before.

My game reviewing blog.

Wraith_Magus

#17 by Wraith_Magus - Jun 15 2012

Wyllow:
Wraith_Magus:

Further, the extreme emotional need to react to a perceived loss of control is, ultimately self-destructive and abusive, as well. In fact, not "as well", that's basically the same thing you're angry at Grabiner for in the first place.
I have no idea what you're talking about here. But if you think speaking up for oneself, against someone being angry and physical with you, is equal to being angry and physical to someone. We have nothing further to talk about.

I'm talking about lashing out in anger in order to try to "correct" what you feel is a lack of respect for you.

You know, the thing you're angry at Grabiner about...

You're not willing to forgive him for what you feel is abusive behavior, and put more priorities upon assuaging your own fear through lashing out, in the exact same way that Grabiner lashed out when he feared he was losing control.

Likewise, reacting with such indignation at the notion that other posters would make a joke, the comment about not caring what other players felt or enjoyed in the game, assumption that those other players are bound to have abusive relationships, and the all-time forum-goer classic of "I'm done talking about this" further imply that your primary motive is not in actually discussing anything, but in trying to assuage your own emotional imbalance through acting outwardly, without regard to consequence or attempt to persuade.

Again, this the emotional state of Grabiner, which you don't want to stop to consider, but are asking others to stop and consider your own emotional state after that exchange...

Your position could use more internal reflection.

Anondyne

#18 by Anondyne - Jun 16 2012

I admit, I'm in the camp of Please Change This. I was ... bothered by the fact that while Grabiner is apologizing, Sue goes "It's fine". I'm sorry, but that kind of thing should never be "fine". Grabiner does apologize, profusely, and I was gratified with that. It is just Sues response that really played a wrong note in my head.

As to what it should be changed to, I'd like her to have something to say about Grabiners habit of not listening to people when they try to explain. I get what Hanako is saying about there needing to be a way for the relationship to develop, but perhaps a choice between indignant calling out of Grabiner (ending the romance if you so choose) and her pointing out that he wouldn't need to apologize quite so much if only he'd allow the students to explain their actions every once in a while. If anything, the latter option, in my mind, should make Sue seem more adult to him, especially if worded carefully enough. It would allow him to express his feeling of respect for her later without too much of a rewrite. It would also go a little way in establishing a balance between the two characters, much like the blue ice cones.

In the end, I'd just be happier in already a great game if the "It's fine" was struck from the script. My 2 cents, for what they be worth.

Wraith_Magus

#19 by Wraith_Magus - Jun 16 2012

Anondyne:
I admit, I'm in the camp of Please Change This. I was ... bothered by the fact that while Grabiner is apologizing, Sue goes "It's fine". I'm sorry, but that kind of thing should never be "fine". Grabiner does apologize, profusely, and I was gratified with that. It is just Sues response that really played a wrong note in my head.

As to what it should be changed to, I'd like her to have something to say about Grabiners habit of not listening to people when they try to explain. I get what Hanako is saying about there needing to be a way for the relationship to develop, but perhaps a choice between indignant calling out of Grabiner (ending the romance if you so choose) and her pointing out that he wouldn't need to apologize quite so much if only he'd allow the students to explain their actions every once in a while. If anything, the latter option, in my mind, should make Sue seem more adult to him, especially if worded carefully enough. It would allow him to express his feeling of respect for her later without too much of a rewrite. It would also go a little way in establishing a balance between the two characters, much like the blue ice cones.

In the end, I'd just be happier in already a great game if the "It's fine" was struck from the script. My 2 cents, for what they be worth.

I agree with this part - in fact, my initial reaction to it, since I wrote it down in another forum, was, just after being dropped to the ground after Grabiner told her she was a liar (for denying it was her) and she should run away, that she should stand up and say "Then use your lie-detecting spell, and I'll prove I'm telling the truth." (Instead of actually running away.)

After all, it wasn't much before that where you get the scene where Potsdam tells you to basically stand your ground against him more.

Of course, "she was too overwhelmed by emotion to do that" could be a fair response, but that was just my initial reaction seeing the scene for the first time.

Wyllow

#20 by Wyllow - Jun 16 2012

Anondyne:
I admit, I'm in the camp of Please Change This. I was ... bothered by the fact that while Grabiner is apologizing, Sue goes "It's fine". I'm sorry, but that kind of thing should never be "fine". Grabiner does apologize, profusely, and I was gratified with that. It is just Sues response that really played a wrong note in my head.

I didn't know he does apologise more later. But her response seemed really lacking to that milkwater/weaksauce first apology in the hallway. I rather like her getting the chance to tell him he scared her(Option Hanako came up with higher up).

And if on top of that, there was some combination of 'Is frightening people always your first choice' / 'Well, maybe if you let people explain themselves...'

I could see it as a hook to get a character/player more curious about him - start to wonder why he does what he does.

Whereas her original scripted response just has me going 'Really?' Because to me his anger, upset, etc was over the top.

It's good to know someone else would appreciate Sue having more/different options in that interaction.

KarenCrystal

#21 by KarenCrystal - Jun 16 2012

It's just a game

hanako

#22 by hanako - Jun 16 2012

If people suggest changes to the game that can be made without damaging the story that currently exists, I am happy to make alterations. I am working on some small changes to a couple of scenes that should not cause any problems for people who like the story that currently exists, while making it better for others.

After all, it's a game. People are supposed to enjoy it!

Wyllow

#23 by Wyllow - Jun 16 2012

hanako:
If people suggest changes to the game that can be made without damaging the story that currently exists, I am happy to make alterations. I am working on some small changes to a couple of scenes that should not cause any problems for people who like the story that currently exists, while making it better for others.

After all, it's a game. People are supposed to enjoy it!

Thanks. I did only hope for change and that it wouldn't be troublesome to you. I appreciate both the conversation and your pleasure to add tweaks.

Soulbringer

#24 by Soulbringer - Jun 17 2012

actually kinda an interessting read, I am usually all for more options variety, however it usually puts a strain on the writters, having to make enougth differences in the story to have alle the choices viable (in some way shape or form)... As such, id like it if the writter could fit it to the story - however i dont find it necesary

It isnt likely that most people would be inclined tell someone that they are scared of them when they ARE actually scared of them (if they ARE able to do that, some would say that they arent actually scared, and rather that they are uncomfortable...)

Anondyne:
As to what it should be changed to, I'd like her to have something to say about Grabiners habit of not listening to people when they try to explain. I get what Hanako is saying about there needing to be a way for the relationship to develop, but perhaps a choice between indignant calling out of Grabiner (ending the romance if you so choose) and her pointing out that he wouldn't need to apologize quite so much if only he'd allow the students to explain their actions every once in a while.

Considering their "official position", i dont think it would be highly likely for Grabiner to actually act on that... Have you ever as a lone student tried to tell your teacher to listen to you (students) more? From my perspective, considering the punishment for leaving the school, it could be even futher away from "our" average school life... And i find it rather hard to have both "Character" (not going to call her mary sue...) and Grabiner in a balanced relationship (even as friends) when NOT developing it. From the get go, there are just too many complications.

Wraith_Magus:
There is no BDSM relationship, and I don't think anyone was asking for one.

Pretty sure everyone is enjoying because there is no BDSM, and futher it would NOT fit well with how MD is written (style and genre)...

As a side note, i am actually really happy that my analysis of him was somewhat accurate

And as Hanako pointed out, chewing him out or pushing him (too much) are NOT the way to have an actual conversation with him, he has his shields up and his path is about gently getting him to loosen up around you.

Wraith_Magus:
that she should stand up and say "Then use your lie-detecting spell, and I'll prove I'm telling the truth." (Instead of actually running away.)

However, if you never intended to get on the Grabiners path and just ended up in the situation, i CAN understand your annoyance, however handling someone clearly more powerful than you and clearly very upset, you CANT go the logical way, because he ISNT being rational, he is being emotional, which can be rather hard to "control" with logical thinking

- as for the apology part, as for a friendly advice there it would again have to go through his "shield" - And he would distance himself from you, which would be what you would want if the Grabiners path wasnt your intended path. [Hanako mentioned this]

The interessting part about the Path is that there is a huge difference between between the 2 characters in regards to "Official", "Secret or social" & "Emotional" standing, which will get explained the futher you go into the relationship

Life is a tale of memories...

Wraith_Magus

#25 by Wraith_Magus - Jun 17 2012

Soulbringer:

Wraith_Magus:
that she should stand up and say "Then use your lie-detecting spell, and I'll prove I'm telling the truth." (Instead of actually running away.)
However, if you never intended to get on the Grabiners path and just ended up in the situation, i CAN understand your annoyance, however handling someone clearly more powerful than you and clearly very upset, you CANT go the logical way, because he ISNT being rational, he is being emotional, which can be rather hard to "control" with logical thinking - as for the apology part, as for a friendly advice there it would again have to go through his "shield" - And he would distance himself from you, which would be what you would want if the Grabiners path wasnt your intended path. [Hanako mentioned this]

The interessting part about the Path is that there is a huge difference between between the 2 characters in regards to "Official", "Secret or social" & "Emotional" standing, which will get explained the futher you go into the relationship

The point of challenging him to test your veracity isn't to just ask him to behave rationally, it's to change the way he is regarding you.

To simply react to a threat with fear and running is a child's reaction, and that's what he's seeing you as when he uses his booming voice and strict disciplinarian shtick - he's doing it because he sees the character as a child that can only be kept in line through fear and discipline.

Standing up to him, even a little, forces a change in that dynamic. It's not a child-parent relationship where the child stands up and says they're willing to take a further beating, but violence won't prove the other party right, merely bigger.

Of course, considering the fear reaction Grabiner was already going through, it may very well make the resulting situation worse, but once he'd calmed down and returned to it, it would likely have made him regard your character as more mature than he'd previously given her credit.

KarenCrystal

#26 by KarenCrystal - Jun 17 2012

Just add the option to punch him in the face. It's what they want as for him seeing you in a new way. that happens at the end of the story. again it's a story and it's not you're story. if you don't like it don't play. IT'S A GAME. just a game....

Wraith_Magus

#27 by Wraith_Magus - Jun 17 2012

KarenCrystal:
Just add the option to punch him in the face. It's what they want as for him seeing you in a new way. that happens at the end of the story. again it's a story and it's not you're story. if you don't like it don't play. IT'S A GAME. just a game....

You know, I've never really had much patience for the "it's just a game" line of reasoning.

Somehow, I doubt many literature teachers would appreciate an argument that the book their students were supposed to be reading and discussing was described by their students as "It doesn't have any meaning, it's just a book."

It's a way to merely excuse not having to think about something, rather than an actual line of thought.

And frankly, this is a game with far more anemic gameplay qualities than most, and far more actual text, so discussing characters and motivations is hardly out of bounds.

Anondyne

#28 by Anondyne - Jun 17 2012

Wraith_Magus:

To simply react to a threat with fear and running is a child's reaction, and that's what he's seeing you as when he uses his booming voice and strict disciplinarian shtick - he's doing it because he sees the character as a child that can only be kept in line through fear and discipline.

Standing up to him, even a little, forces a change in that dynamic. It's not a child-parent relationship where the child stands up and says they're willing to take a further beating, but violence won't prove the other party right, merely bigger.

You have a good point here. I still feel though that Sue running away after Grabiner accuses her of spilling the beans is not entirely out of character. She has no reason not to believe his threats until Grabiner apologizes and reveals just how hollow they were. And occasionally, knowing when to retreat is better part of the valour, or something like that.

When someone is so emotionally upset as Grabiner is in that scene, it can be impossible to have any meaningful dialogue with that person. Sometimes the best option is always to go away and wait for them to take a few deep breaths to calm themselves and sort out their thoughts. Especially if the upset person can constitute a credible threat to you. And from Sues viewpoint, since she doesn't know what Hanako has posted of Grabiners motivations, he is a threat to her.

This is why I'm more concerned over how the conflict is resolved in the subsequent apology scenes. Grabiners effort of apology, to me, should open a more sincere dialogue between the two characters, if Hanako chooses to tweak the game this way. The content of the dialogue is, in and of itself, not important. But the way the scene plays for me now, Sue sounds either passive aggressive or cowed, either of which emotions I don't really attribute to Sue. This would be a perfect opportunity for her stand up for herself and stand out as the mature person in the room, since Grabiner is for once in a receptive frame of mind.

Of course, my opinion, it's Hanakos game, your opinion is as valid as mine etc.

And lest my opinions be construed as insolence, I loved the game enough to buy it 3 times, once for myself and twice to gift to friends.

This is more of an academic dissection of a perfectly lovely meal where you were given the wrong cutlery for the fish course.

Wraith_Magus

#29 by Wraith_Magus - Jun 17 2012

Perhaps, but again, I wrote that down as I was playing the game, before I had the benefit of seeing that apology or having his reasoning explained to me.

You could say it was partly that Potsdam had just encouraged the Suetagonist to be more firm with Grabiner, and I was looking for the chance.

However, it is also true that I, personally, tend to just naturally have the tendency to not leave well enough alone when I have a point to prove. And from an RP perspective, proving I wasn't just some child to be threatened and dismissed was a higher priority than walking out with all my limbs still attached.

If you are really approaching that relationship from the angle of someone

I would also point out that Ellen, properly steamed, was willing to charge headlong into Grabiner and tell him what-for, even after being chewed out and then told what the consequences would be. (And she outright enjoys the detention, both because she proves herself, and it advanced her interests.) I guess there's a reason I like her path the best is not only that Ellen's motives are just the most understandable and relatable of all the characters, but she also just plain seems the most mature of all the options, romantic or friendship, that you have in the game.

ferdielance

#30 by ferdielance - Jul 7 2012

But if the protagonist really does think Grabiner is dangerous (and he has a lot more magical power than her) punching him in the face could be really unwise. Teleporting herself or him away would be a better move than starting a fight with a professor.

But I don't really think the focus here should be entirely on what the protagonist could do differently, because Grabiner really was very far in the wrong there. Even by the logic of a place where a childhood joke promise is serious binding business, he went way way too far, and it disappointed me.

One of the game's biggest strengths is that, in most of the situations, it's possible for the player to choose to do the smart thing, and for the other characters to be smart as well. There's little reliance on people being stupid in order to generate arbitrary drama, outside of some side-plots.

The scene would make more sense to me if the violence were toned down or Grabiner used an illusion to attack her or something. It would still be unacceptable to threaten Mary Sue that way, but at least it would be softened a bit.

Blue Rose

#31 by Blue Rose - Jul 7 2012

Honestly, Grabiner would probably be my favorite path, except for this. And with this, it's my least favorite.

My character, Susan, was flawlessly behaved. No detention, ever. Passed every test, usually with the extra credit, if available, and usually creatively. She'd never treated Grabiner with anything but kindness and respect, as much as possible. She was a responsible, dependable servant of the student body. She'd tried to save his life, as misguided as that may be. If she wasn't a fifty-merit student at that point, she was close. She'd mastered both Grabiner's classes to the furthest extent a freshman can and well-studied to boot (smarts in the seventies). She offered her kindness and courage, and gave it in spades. She was everything Grabby could possibly ask of her.

And then when some rumors start flying around, he flips out, refuses to acknowledge anything she says, performs violence against her and terrifies her.

That was the point where I felt like my character was taken away from me.

1) Why does it have to happen at all? If you're that perfect all the way through, why is it so unacceptable for him to have at least enough respect for the girl to step back for one second and think, to consider that maybe she really doesn't know, that maybe this rumor coming out hurts her just as much as it does him. Why can't there be a step where you've garnered enough credibility with him that he doesn't, you know, perform a terrifying act of violence against her.

2) I had red magic and blue magic at 100. Heck, Susan ended up getting "dueling instructor" as her future profession, IIRC. I count five blue magic spells and three or four combination spells that I could've at least tried (personally, this seems a perfect time for Reflection). At Red 100, with Grabiner so mad he can't see straight, I could totally give him a psychic pop in the nose, even if it didn't accomplish anything. Actually, the one I really wanted to have Susan do is cast Crush on the wall behind her to make an escape route. If there are people in the next room (or outside, depending on which wall she's pressed up against), they see Grabiner for what he is. If not, they come running when they hear a friggin' wall collapse, then see Grabiner standing over a battered, terrified young girl lying in a pile of rubble.

Of course, neither of these work as suggestions. I know they change too much.